x7x7x7
I have Played keno for years always thinking it was trully random and have enjoyed the game yes I've lost more than I won but never my mortgage payment lol so it was only for entertainment and I have enjoyed playing and ever so often hit a nice 7-spot or 8-spot or 8 of 9 etc for a nice payday but now after reading this this seems like it could make sense I hope its not true would take away alotta the fun of keno knowing its not trully random.... Does anyone work for a company like IGT or something and answer this with a def yes or no? Thanks
One of the most technical explanations of how a video keno game works was delivered to me from a reader who claims to have received the information from a former technician of a major slot manufacturer.
Now, I don’t endorse this explanation or suggest that it is a true reflection of how keno machines work. But I thought it might prove interesting, if not worthwhile, to our readers. Here is the explanation, in the reader’s own words:
These machines are designed and programmed to do one thing. Pay the house a certain pre-determined percentage of every dollar gambled, and I have been assured that if the machine has not registered enough intake of money to enable it to pay out a major jackpot, it will not hit no matter how many times or how often you re-set your numbers. These machines have a three phase program written into them.
Phase one … there isn’t enough money to pay a jackpot. This is when the machine will somehow manage to miss your numbers most of the time, hitting small pays just often enough to keep the 'it’s due' type of player feeding it.
Phase two is the real kicker. When the machine has enough money to pay out a jackpot without hurting the house 'hold' it actually switches over to a second program that is truly run via a random number generator. At this point the machine is actually running an honest RNG program, and your numbers may or may not hit depending on how lucky you are. This is when your true odds of hitting a jackpot based on the number of spots picked come into play. The more numbers picked, the longer the odds. (One note here: Almost all these machines except those connected to a progressive jackpot, pay the same maximum jackpot for an 8-, 9- or 10-spot. So why play a 10-spot when an 8-spot pays the same and your odds of hitting one are exponentially better?)
The third phase programmed into the game is the one you hope you’re lucky enough to have running when you put your money in and pick your numbers. Everyone from the Gaming Control Board to the manufacturer will deny this even under the pain of death, but just remember it is a computer and it can be programmed to do anything you want it to do. And it is the only way that a machine manufacturer can guarantee the house that they will make their percentage in profit. When these machines switch over to the third tier of the program, it reads that the machine is holding far in excess of what it is programmed to earn for the house, usually from 15 percent to 18 percent. It’s just way too close to the maximum 25 percent hold mandated by state gaming regulations. Now it doesn’t matter what numbers you pick, they are going to hit!
Interesting stuff, wouldn’t you say? Beyond that, I don’t have a clue whether this is an accurate explanation of a video keno program. And, of course, the game manufacturers aren’t talking.
One of the most technical explanations of how a video keno game works was delivered to me from a reader who claims to have received the information from a former technician of a major slot manufacturer.
Now, I don’t endorse this explanation or suggest that it is a true reflection of how keno machines work. But I thought it might prove interesting, if not worthwhile, to our readers. Here is the explanation, in the reader’s own words:
These machines are designed and programmed to do one thing. Pay the house a certain pre-determined percentage of every dollar gambled, and I have been assured that if the machine has not registered enough intake of money to enable it to pay out a major jackpot, it will not hit no matter how many times or how often you re-set your numbers. These machines have a three phase program written into them.
Phase one … there isn’t enough money to pay a jackpot. This is when the machine will somehow manage to miss your numbers most of the time, hitting small pays just often enough to keep the 'it’s due' type of player feeding it.
Phase two is the real kicker. When the machine has enough money to pay out a jackpot without hurting the house 'hold' it actually switches over to a second program that is truly run via a random number generator. At this point the machine is actually running an honest RNG program, and your numbers may or may not hit depending on how lucky you are. This is when your true odds of hitting a jackpot based on the number of spots picked come into play. The more numbers picked, the longer the odds. (One note here: Almost all these machines except those connected to a progressive jackpot, pay the same maximum jackpot for an 8-, 9- or 10-spot. So why play a 10-spot when an 8-spot pays the same and your odds of hitting one are exponentially better?)
The third phase programmed into the game is the one you hope you’re lucky enough to have running when you put your money in and pick your numbers. Everyone from the Gaming Control Board to the manufacturer will deny this even under the pain of death, but just remember it is a computer and it can be programmed to do anything you want it to do. And it is the only way that a machine manufacturer can guarantee the house that they will make their percentage in profit. When these machines switch over to the third tier of the program, it reads that the machine is holding far in excess of what it is programmed to earn for the house, usually from 15 percent to 18 percent. It’s just way too close to the maximum 25 percent hold mandated by state gaming regulations. Now it doesn’t matter what numbers you pick, they are going to hit!
Interesting stuff, wouldn’t you say? Beyond that, I don’t have a clue whether this is an accurate explanation of a video keno program. And, of course, the game manufacturers aren’t talking.
- The casino's only means of legal force is a civil suit or possibly a gaming commission process. They cannot use physical force to make you turn it over. It is also unlikely they can legally underpay you the amount you were overplayed at the cage, but I have heard of this happening.
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7craps
e43138
nyuhoosier
This is the kind of tripe that surfaces a lot on this board -- conspiracy theories based on second- or third-hand information. It's in casinos' interest to offer fair games because the house edge -- particularly in KENO(!!) -- is already on their side. No need to risk everything by cheating. Plus, they're highly regulated, at least in Nevada.
People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.
People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.
Wizard
Administrator
Administrator
This is the kind of tripe that surfaces a lot on this board -- conspiracy theories based on second- or third-hand information. It's in casinos' interest to offer fair games because the house edge -- particularly in KENO(!!) -- is already on their side. No need to risk everything by cheating. Plus, they're highly regulated, at least in Nevada.
People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
7craps
Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.
Book: License to Steal: Nevada's Gaming Control System in the Megaresort Age
An excellent and fun book to read.
preview google books HERE
Read page one and two in Chapter One for free. Pages 43 and 44 are good also.
There WAS cheating back then, and they had HE on slots back then,in the mid 80s and 90s, so then they must have cheated because they were greedy. Only reason I could figure.
But no one is greedy any more, from Wall Street to Casinos and Banks. Im sure they all learned their lessons and will be 100% honest til the end.
I say, if someone (a casino anywhere in the world)wants to cheat, they will, regardless of risk being caught. History has shown it HAS happened and I am sure it continues to happen.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
JerryLogan
This is the kind of tripe that surfaces a lot on this board -- conspiracy theories based on second- or third-hand information. It's in casinos' interest to offer fair games because the house edge -- particularly in KENO(!!) -- is already on their side. No need to risk everything by cheating. Plus, they're highly regulated, at least in Nevada.
People who lose again and again need to rationalize it with the conclusion that the game must be fixed. Notice that some guy heard this from some guy. Yeah, it's interesting, but show me the facts.
That's just it. Who's going to show anyone any facts about what's done with video gaming machines? We're in a recession right now and anything's possible if it weren't already. All we have to go by are Gaming Regs, and who's to say if they're complete or if they have multiple interpretations available.
People will lie, companies will cheat, governments will mislead; happens all the time. I believe machine fairness is an individual perception, bounded by hope that everything's on the up & up.
mkl654321
At least one player who is known, and almost certainly, dozens who are not, have managed to exploit the non-randomness of video keno machines to win large sums. The key is that there is no such thing as a true random number generator, without going into the technical details.As to whether the machines can be set to 'cheat'--well, we all know this is trivial to do. It is also completely undetectable. Even if the Gaming Control Board were to descend on a casino, guns drawn, and spirit away all the video keno machines with the purpose of carrying them back to their underground lair and making them confess--well, the act of powering the machines down would destroy any loaded program (in software, not in firmware). And I doubt very much whether any clueless third party could ever decode the program anyway.
So the question is, they can cheat--but would they? Well, first, you have to define 'cheat'. The casinos have already decided, AND THE COURTS AGREE WITH THEM, that fiddling with the outcome of a 'random' slot machine event is NOT cheating. If a reel slot was going to display (blank) 7 7, the program will rearrange the outcome to 7 7 (blank), making the customer's heart skip a beat, rather than the anticlimactic initial blank.
So as long as the eventual preset payback is realized, both practice and law (I'm talking Nevada law here, which is more like 1920's Chicago or 1990's Russia law) say that the casino can rearrange those payouts any way they want. Do keno machines cluster results in the way you mention? We'll never know--but the casinos have shown no compunction against mucking with supposedly randomly generated results. The silver lining is that if they ARE doing that, it doesn't actually change your overall chances one way or the other--it just increases your variance (which can actually be a Godsend on a -EV game, as you might hit something big and be able to get away from the damned machine before it crushes you).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Wizard
Administrator
Administrator
...the casinos have shown no compunction against mucking with supposedly randomly generated results.
I stand by what I have said many times, that video poker and video keno in Nevada is fair, as if real cards/balls were used. If anyone can provide me evidence that such is not that case, I'll be happy to investigate, and use my bully pulpit to shame any game maker that is not offering an honest and fair game, as well as making a formal complaint to Gaming.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
scotty81
I have to agree with the Wizard. Having worked in the Legal industry for almost 30 years, I can tell you that without question that if this sort of systematic cheating was being perpetrated on the general public by IGT and the casinos that you would see a class action suit filed so fast it would make your brain hurt.The financial incentives to expose/litigate this sort of cheating far outweigh any advantage either IGT or the casinos would gain from it.
That's not to say that there have not been instances in past where shoddy RNGs and clever programmers have found ways to beat the system. But, these were isolated cases, and I believe it is not systemically integrated into the machines.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
DorothyGale
People who have no clue how the industry works and have no idea about the levels of oversight and testing protocols are quick to create fantasies to explain their losses. No amount of explanation from experts is going to do; they are just going to believe those who tell them what they want to believe.If it sounds just like religious quackery, it is.
I believed the 'Wizard' was a wizard until I pulled back the curtain. Now I know he passes every statistical test for fairness created by man.
--Dorothy
'Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!'
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18 members have voted
EvenBob
2. Stalin brought Russia out of the medieval ages..
Stalin murdered over 20 million of his own people, totallyon purpose. he should be karma's poster boy. If life was
fair.
'It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail.' Gore Vidal
EvenBob
We really don't know if Rockefeller suffered consequences.
He lost all his hair and had a bad stomach and lived
to be 99. He didn't drink or smoke or cheat on his
wife and went to church every Sunday. He lived the
idyllic rich man's life.
'It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail.' Gore Vidal
bbvk05
You legally have to return lost and found property to the original owner on request without exception, there is no 'finders keepers'. Not sure if game payouts qualify however. But if winnings are viewed as contract overpayments, you are obliged to return them if requested, and it can be enforced.
This is correct. It is a contract overpayment and you are obligated to return it. It does not, however, violate any criminal laws. The casino's only means of legal force is a civil suit or possibly a gaming commission process. They cannot use physical force to make you turn it over. It is also unlikely they can legally underpay you the amount you were overplayed at the cage, but I have heard of this happening.
It is not theft nor is it criminal to refuse to return overpayment. It also isn't lost or abandoned property.
I would also note that certain types of lost or abandoned property really are 'finders keepers,' but generally the actual owner has a superior right to the finder. None of that applies here.
Paigowdan
Clearly it can be enforced but is less likely to be if you are ignorant or appear to be ignorant of what has beeen happening.
It will be explained to the person.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
It is not theft nor is it criminal to refuse to return overpayment.
The IRS is an exception.Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AlanMendelson
If I knew I was being overpaid I would not accept the overpayment. I have been overpaid before and immediately returned the money.
One interesting story from several years ago at Caesars:
The shooter in craps had just made a point of 8. On the next come out roll he rolled a six, but the dealer on my side of the table forgot to move the puck from the 8 to the six.
On the very next roll, the shooter rolled a winner-6. That was no problem for the other side of the table, where the puck was correctly on the 6. But on my side of the table the puck was on 8.
The floorman made the decision to pay the passline and odds for both sides of the table, PLUS even though the 6 was rolled, the place bets on 8 were also paid.
That's what I call customer service and correcting a dealer error.
One interesting story from several years ago at Caesars:
The shooter in craps had just made a point of 8. On the next come out roll he rolled a six, but the dealer on my side of the table forgot to move the puck from the 8 to the six.
On the very next roll, the shooter rolled a winner-6. That was no problem for the other side of the table, where the puck was correctly on the 6. But on my side of the table the puck was on 8.
The floorman made the decision to pay the passline and odds for both sides of the table, PLUS even though the 6 was rolled, the place bets on 8 were also paid.
That's what I call customer service and correcting a dealer error.
FleaStiff
Yes, and sometimes the Box will discover the discordant 'pucks' during a roll, make a ruling and ask right then for anyone to speak up or forever hold his peace. A quick interruption and a generous resolution and the game proceeds. Casinos know dealers get tired or inattentive for a variety of reasons and the casino has no desire to annoy customers or magnify nor perpetuate errors, but when they discover an over payment such as a call from surveillance they may have no choice. Either way: once the decision is announced, that is it. Arguing with the umpire is for the suckers watching the game.
bbvk05
The IRS has a specific statute that covers their request for return of overpayment. That which is not covered by a specific statute is not criminal.
Paigowdan
The IRS has a specific statute that covers their request for return of overpayment. That which is not covered by a specific statute is not criminal.
People have done time for not paying taxes in rare cases, depending on extreme cases.
Even with it not being criminal, they can certain impose restrictions to impact someone's life. Don't tell me this is not true.
Every punitive measure applied over a person shows that someone else has a certain authority to take action against your will or intent, without the need for a criminal court to weigh in. You can get some of your property re-allocated to the IRS, or get 86-ed from a casino, without it being a criminal court matter.
Hit Casino Katowice Forum Online
The fact that some issue does not always end up in criminal court or even involve lawyers, doesn't always validate that a person was in the right.Hit Casino Katowice Forum &
You can be told 'no, you broke rules/did something wrong' without a lawyer or judge being required, and without the 'casino players'/card counters/chip snatchers' Bill of Rights being shown to you on demand. And the person telling you this may indeed have a certain authority over you; quite often it is 'just' a wife or floorman or boss.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
buzzpaff
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' 'casino players'/card counters/chip snatchers' ' why are card counters linked to chip snattchers ?